Herbert W Armstrong

   We had a 25th anniversary in Chicago during the Days of Unleavened Bread. And if you look back over 25 years of history in a church area like that, and you see on slides people who've been a part of the church in the past, and they aren't anymore, you can't help but wonder what's happened. I know that's what prompted Mr. Armstrong to do a lot of thinking in this area.

   So, one of the subjects we're covering in the Ministerial Educational Program is going through the counseling on baptism. You know, we don't want to be just dunking people anymore. We don't want people to think they're part of the church, to think they have God's Spirit, to find out later they've been laboring vigorously with all kinds of power and yet without God's Spirit. Because, in the end, God rewards you by how much you increase the pound.

   Now, maybe one of the shocking statements made in the Bible is back here in I Corinthians 13. One of the other shocking statements is where it says Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. That's, you know, that's a dumbfounding. I've thought about that a lot. I was talking to my wife yesterday as we were driving from Phoenix to San Horn, and I said, "Well, you know, it's kind of interesting. He didn't have 300 wives and 700 concubines; he had 700 wives and 300 concubines." You know, what does that teach you? Maybe a person gets possessive towards the person they're going to be involved with you know. And even though they think they're somehow qualified to have 700 wives, they don't want anybody else to be qualified to have theirs.

   I thought that was beer, but it's just water. Now, I wouldn't take that anyway.

   But this is another shocking scripture. Notice what this says in I Corinthians 13. Paul says, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

   Now, is this saying you can have some of the fruits of God's Spirit? Is this saying you can have some of the indications of conversion, and yet not have one of the ultimate ingredients in conversion, and that is charity? Can you actually think some people could speak with the tongues of angels and still not have charity? People to have enough of a gift of prophecy that they can understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and yet didn't have charity?

   Is this just suggesting stages of conversion? Is this talking about some people that seem to have interest in certain areas of truth, and yet not in the whole truth? I remember a man in Kansas City that first started into the church because he was really a nut about prophecy. Boy, to think this Bible could tell things ahead of time before they happened! You know, that is really exciting to him. I might as well have gone to Jeane Dixon to find out some things she said were going to happen because she was about 52% right too.

   But, you know, according to the Bible, Paul says, "Though I have the gift of prophecy to understand mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all faith that I could remove mountains and have not charity." Is that really possible? Is he just saying, "Well, look, even if you did have all these others, if you didn't have charity to go with it, then you'd better not have all those others. You'd better have charity before you have any of the others."

   Now, notice verse three. "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned." Now, you wouldn't really think you could do that, would you? You ever known of anybody that's given all their goods to feed the poor and didn't have charity? Well, that's sure hard to figure that out. Did you ever imagine tho someone could give their body to be burned in an attitude of sacrifice and a willingness to lay down their life, and do that and not have charity?

   Boy, those are kind of staggering, frightening ideas. Then he begins to show why charity excels these others he's mentioned before, and why you need to have it first.

   Well, you know, one thing Mr. Armstrong's been emphasizing a great deal lately and it really started out on one of the telecast. He got to talking about people who believe in God. They believe there is a God, they believe this Bible that God's Word, and they believe that God is God and they believe in a God. But they don't have the right attitude toward what He says.

   I wonder how many of us might be in that boat because if we are, in time, in the future, we won't be in the church either you know. There have to be some reasons people used to be in God's church in the last 10, 15, 20 years, and they aren't anymore. Now, I wonder what some of those reasons are.

   I went over with Mr. Armstrong's over to Mr. Armstrong's with one of the ministers, and this minister felt like he couldn't get his questions answered unless he saw Mr. Herbert Armstrong personally. Of course, he didn't think he'd ever get a chance to do it, but I sat right there with him when he did.

   Can men actually be ministers and yet not be converted? Do you think people could actually come into God's church, and be deacons and elders, and never even have been converted? How much can God use someone who's not even converted?

   Well, I'll tell you one thing: if Mr. Armstrong had said to me what he said to that minister, I know for sure what I'd have said because Mr. Armstrong has said he's very plain when someone comes to him and they're at a crossroads in their lives. And you know, he says very plainly, "Well, I don't think you've ever been called to the ministry, and I don't think you've ever been converted."

   Well, what if somebody said that to you? What would be your reaction? It's mighty important what your reaction would be.

   What if Mr. Walden, as the minister, found it his job to counsel with you, and because of his acquaintance with you over a few years, he said, "You know, I frankly have enjoyed you and really like you and, but you know I think it's best for you that I just level with you. I don't think you've ever been converted."

   What would be your reaction? What would you say?

   Well, I'll tell you for sure: if Mr. Armstrong had told me that, I'd have said, "Well, Mr. Armstrong, if you don't think I've ever been converted, boy, I want to get back to the basic literature. I want to get out those old 23-25 lessons of the Correspondence Course. I want to lose myself for a few weeks in the Bible, in Bible study and prayer, crying out to God and fasting. And if you don't think I've ever been converted, I sure want to be. I sure hope God will let me be."

   But, you know, other people's reactions to something like that… I've told some people I didn't think they were ever converted. The trouble is, the most people you have to always tell that to aren't the ones that's going to reach the way I just described. The ones you usually have to tell that to are the one's that's going to reach another way, their going to get mad. They're going to get upset with you. They're going to begin to say, "Well, I wonder what I did. What's he got against me? What is it he didn't like about me? Or he just doesn't understand me." Or you know look at all those different reactions if someone just came and told you, you weren't converted.

   You know, Mrs. Armstrong was baptized by a minister of another church. So every now and then she'd talk to Mr. Herbert Armstrong and say, "Well, you know, Herbert, I'm not really sure about my baptism because it wasn't one of God's ministers who baptized me, you know."

   And he'd say, "Now, look, we've been over that before. I've told you that you're converted. If you don't have God's spirit, I never knew anybody who was converted."

   But you know, the person that isn't really converted never does doubts it, never questions it. That doesn't mean because you do question it, you are converted though. But you know she obviously was converted, called, had God's Spirit.

   But wouldn't it be a sad thing for you to sit in God's church for years and years and years and not even really be converted? To think you are, and to think you have been?

   Well, I'd like to help you kind of be sure today because it's sad to see people drop out of God's church and come to realize they've never been converted.

   Maybe a good example of this is one whole book in the Bible that I think most people miss the point of, and that's the book of Job.

   And I've heard two or three different themes as far as what people think is the purpose of the book of Job, but I've come to a different knowledge or acquaintance with the book of Job.

   The first place thing anybody might tell you about the book of Job is that Job was self-righteous. Now, was Job self-righteous? And what do you know about being self-righteous? What does it mean to be self-righteous?

   Let me ask you a question like this: Do you have to be righteous to be self-righteous? Would you, in God's evaluation, be righteous, would you have to be righteous in God's picture before you could be self-righteous?

   Well, is that really the purpose of Job just to show you the nature of someone who is self-righteous?

   Now, the first part of the book of Job, I think most of us are quite well acquainted with. But when you begin to come to the righteousness of Job, you should stop and think that Job's righteousness wasn't the kind of righteousness that would keep him from offending a neighbor. Job's righteousness made his neighbors dislike him. What, should that be?

   Now, maybe your doctrines, maybe your Sabbath, maybe certain things about your religion might upset and offend your neighbors. But was that what offended the neighbors about Job?

   Not really. It was Job's attitude about his own righteousness and his condemnation of everybody else that was so far inferior to him. He was always above everybody, always judging anybody else. They were always inferior and less righteous than he was.

   You might notice in verse 20 of chapter 9 (Job 9:20), a couple of statements about Job: "If I justify myself, my own mouth shall condemn me." So even though he was self-righteous, he knew you don't justify yourself. Yet he went on doing it all the time, but he never would admit he was doing it. He didn't see that he was doing it.

   As you go on through the book of Job—and it's not my purpose today to dwell on Job or the meaning of Job or anything else—but coming on over a little further, notice when you come to chapter 32 what happens, Job 32.

   Job's neighbors had tried to talk to Job, and he wouldn't listen to them. He knew their lack of righteousness, so why should they be able to tell him what was wrong with him when he knew very well he was far more righteous than they were?

   "So these three men ceased to answer Job because he was righteous in his own eyes." He was righteous in his own eyes. Was he righteous in God's eyes?

   Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu against Job. His wrath was kindled because he justified himself.

   And yet we just read earlier that Job admitted that anybody who would try to justify himself, their own words would condemn them. Yet here God states very plainly that Job really did justify himself rather than God.

   That seems kind of odd. You justify yourself rather than God? Not beyond God, or in addition to God, he justified himself rather than God.

   And you know, it's really a dead giveaway to the self-righteous is and I'll show you the New Testament statement: They don't strongly maintain the righteousness of God. They go beyond God's righteousness. They go out into little areas that God doesn't even tread and draw standards or draw lines of righteousness.

   Notice this: He justified himself rather than God.

   Now, that's one of the most difficult things to overcome, is a nature like Job's. I mean, it's probably the most difficult thing there is because can you think of any man in the Bible who suffered more to overcome, to become righteous, to become converted and repentant? Can you think of any man who went through more than Job did? I can't.

   Well I would really feel sorry for anybody that's like Job. A lot of times, I thought I was like Job, and maybe I was. You know, I grew up as a Baptist, and all those Sundays in church tended to build up your security and your feeling of righteousness. And I know I used to feel like a man, and I'll show you here in the Scriptures in a few minutes. I'd go to school and I'd walk around, and, you know, I was so thankful I wasn't as bad as that guy, and I wasn't as bad as that guy. In fact, I couldn't think of very many guys who were below me in badness you know. Yet, I didn't think of myself as being good either. And there were some guys I thought were more righteous than I.

   But notice what happened here then: "Also against his three friends his wrath was kindled, because here are these guys, far less righteous than Job, and yet they're standing there condemning Job. And yet what have they got to condemn anybody else for when they haven't even attained his righteousness?

   Well, Elihu had waited until Job had spoken because they were older than he. And when Elihu saw there was no answer in the mouth of any of these three men, then his wrath was kindled. Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, answered and said, "Well I was young, and you are older, so I was afraid, and I didn't show you my opinion. So, I said, Days should speak, and a multitude of years should teach wisdom. But there is a spirit in man, and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding."

   And all of a sudden, God was actually inspiring Elihu. "Great men are not always wise: age isn't always and indication of understanding judgment, but now God has inspired me with his spirit. I've got to speak up. I can't, I can't hold it back any longer."

   But you know, the main thing about Job, it's a sad case that an inspired man of God can't tell a self-righteous person they are self-righteous. They still don't believe it. They'll still never believe it. So, if any of us are self-righteous and we're going to have to go through the tribulation because we're self-righteous, I can't tell you you are. You'd never believe it, even if I'm inspired by God through God's Spirit I couldn't tell you and have you believe it, you wouldn't believe it.

   That's really the main thing I learned out of the book of Job. When someone is self-righteous, only God can make them come to see it. All you can do is turn somebody off toward you. All you can do is cause someone to discount anything else you might say because you brazenly told them they were self-righteous.

   But I feel sorry for the self-righteous more than anybody as far as what they're going to have to go through in the future. I know in the end it's for their own good, but I know in many cases, is that's the only way you can learn it.

   Can someone come to recognize that he is self-righteous and repent of it? Can you be converted and be self-righteous, or does conversion come later on? Was Job converted before the last chapter, or did he just finally get converted in the last chapter?

   You know, someone who's self-righteous isn't someone who maintains very vigorously every jot and tittle of God's law. That's not self-righteousness. That's God's righteousness. Did Jesus say whoever teaches men the least of the commandments is self-righteous? He didn't say that. They didn't do self righteous. There are persons who don't get their righteousness standards out of the Bible.

   As I'll show you here a plain statement a little later. But when you read the last chapter of Job, maybe we should turn there and, and read this. And notice what it says. I look back over men. I've loved greatly and men, I felt giant inferior to some of the men I've known in the past that were more diligent, more regimented, more character driven in the habitual prayer, habitual fasting and Bible study. And I look back on people that, why did they pray? Well, because you're supposed to, it's righteousness. And if you're gonna maintain righteousness, you're gonna pray three times a day or 30 minutes a day or whatever standards have been drawn by people or God in the past.

   Why do you pray? It used to bug me when one of these super righteous ministers that I used to feel inferior to and look up to, he come out of the area and spend a few days and every day you say, well, you got your prayer in today and you know what that do to me? Of course, if you hadn't, then you'd quote that scripture back there that says, let your righteousness be done in private and uh don't be waving your righteousness in front of men, you know, and if you'd be prayed to be seen or be known or be heard by that, that's your reward right there.

   And so I used to, I never did tell him that because I felt so inferior to him and I don't think it would do any good if I had told him that because the guy that self righteous wouldn't listen anyway. But he used to do that when he'd get around. He'd say, well, hand me my Bible there Dean while you're driving. I might as well get my time in, you know, and, uh, I'm gonna read eight chapters a day or, you know, I might as well spend my 30 minutes in Bible study. And so, you know, there, I'm driving, what am I supposed to do? Wheel over and say, well, let's just get it in together. You know, if you're gonna get your 30 minutes of righteousness in.

   But, you know, that man isn't in the church anymore, that man isn't even a minister anymore. We used to have a guy at college that without any doubt was the most clockwork man in prayer I've ever known. I mean, every time I'd be going to the washroom to brush my teeth or, you know, going back to my room to study, he'd be headed for the prayer clause or the antic as it was back then. But, you know, he, I guess he went to the prayer just like the prayer seats, you know, every hour on the hour he had that down so pat.

   Well, you know, it didn't mean anything to me. Later on when I visited the guy in the middle institution over out of Saint Louis, I didn't associate that fact of his prayer with that. But I wondered if the guy prayed that much how anything like that could ever happen to him. But do we assume people don't pray if they are self-righteous or if they are unconverted? Or I noticed the last chapter of Job and Job answered the Eternal and said, I, I know that you can do everything that no thought can be withheld from you. Who is he that hides counseled without knowledge why I've uttered things I didn't understand, things that were way beyond my ability that I never did know. So now job without any doubt has really come to himself in this chapter. Was he just now being converted or was he converted before? But just had a self-righteousness to overcome after he was converted.

   You have to overcome self-righteousness before you're converted or can you be converted and then have time to overcome it? Well, notice as you go on, Job is admitting here how he finally sees himself the way he didn't see from anybody else. And yet you notice he never did admit to Elihu, he never did go back to his neighbors and apologize to them. And he never did go to Elihu and ask his forgiveness either.

   And you know, another unusual thing about Job, it just starts out with a full-grown man with married kids and doesn't tell you about what his earlier life was. To be self-righteous do you have to have been righteous from the time you were a little kid all up. Our kind of person has had a fairly bad background but all of a sudden when they finally come around to seemingly going God's way, then all of a sudden, they go to the other extreme and just become super righteous because of a bad background. Can you, can you be that way? Yeah, we'll see.

   But notice going on here in Job 42, Here I beseech you and I'll speak, I'll demand of you and declare to me, I've heard of you by the hearing of the ear. But now mine eye sees you, and that's, that's really a key verse.

   Young people grow up hearing of God by the hearing of the ear. We have young people who go to God's college, get baptized, get married, and go out into the ministry, but they've never been more converted than a jackrabbit. That's true. That's true. We've got a lot of people who come up just as if they had come up in the Baptist church, and they end up staying in the church just like I did when I came up in the Baptist church, but they're not any more converted than I was when I was a Baptist. And that's the danger for young people.

   You know, whatever young people do, we don't want you to go through what Job did by just having heard of God by the hearing of the ear and then just going along with God.

   The last time I was over there, Mr. Herbert Armstrong said, "You know, I've been thinking a lot about this." He said, "When God revealed the truth to me, I didn't want it. I wanted it to be wrong. I wanted to disprove it. I didn't like it when God tried to cram His religion down my throat. I kept thinking, what's everybody going to say? Well look what this is going to do!"

   And, you know, I've never really thought about the difference between other people and how the truth comes to them. But he said, "You know, other people have approached it as if, well, you know, I've always been one that's been a searcher for truth, and I've always done what I knew was right, you know. And I just didn't know this, but now that I come to see that this is the right way, well, I'm going to go this way because I've always gone the way that I was shown was right."

   A person no more converted than a jackrabbit. You know that person isn't converted. In the first place, what do you mean by "converted," anyway? What is conversion?

   What do you mean by "converted"? A young person grows up keeping the Sabbath, not eating unclean meats, not keeping Easter and Christmas, and the time comes that they say they're converted. So, they turn around and go the other direction? Why, they sure didn't. They kept right on going in the same direction they grew up going. How can they turn around and start going the other direction?

   We've found too many people who have given themselves over to doctrine, given themselves over to the way of life they've grown up knowing the truth. Then they've gone right on along with it, and that's not conversion.

   We've had young people who've gone to Ambassador College, graduated, gotten all the training on sex and marriage, had one of God's ministers bind them in a marriage, and I've got a bunch of cases right in my satchel that I've brought along to study when I have the time on a trip, even. I've got to figure out whether they're married or not. Some young person that married somebody… I wish I could read one of the cases to you, but I better not.

   But, you know, the person said, here they were supposedly—afterwards, they admitted they were just following the prescription. The thing to do is go to Ambassador College. The next thing to do is graduate. Then, almost everybody who graduates gets married and goes out. The only trouble is, this guy admits it wasn't really the girl he was marrying. It was just the practice and the policy and the procedure. He never really, you know, he didn't want to marry her so badly that he couldn't help himself. He didn't want to just marry her so vigorously as an individual. He was just following a prescription, going the way of the formula, acting out a scheme or plan. Then, after he got married to her, he didn't like her, resented her, started taking his resentment out on her. He knew he hadn't married her because he loved her. He knew he hadn't really wanted to be married to her. He just felt like the thing to do was get married.

   And now, we've got two or three Ambassador graduates who have found out not only are they not even married, but they're not even baptized, and they're not even converted!

   Now, we've got two or three Ambassador graduates who have found out not only are they not even married, but they're not even baptized, they're not even converted.

   You know, I remember one man who's not in the church anymore too. This guy came up to a conference and started advocating this new truth that he had happened upon in his reasoning. And he said, "Education is conversion."

   No, it's not either! No, it isn't. That's what's the matter with some people. They felt like education is conversion, and it isn't.

   You know, Mr. Armstrong brought up about some of these ministers that have bombed out of the church. He said, "Do you think they really taught themselves because they didn't want this truth? They didn't want to go along with this way?" God says the carnal mind is enmity against God. It was with them. It wasn't with a lot of people. They just grew up in the cruise and automatically kept right on going in it.

   How about the truth with you? Do you just follow the way that you've accepted doctrinally or intellectually? Have you ever really had an experience with God that deals with your very deep being, with what you are—not just what you think, not just what you know, or what you don't know?

   This one guy supposedly was converted and married, graduated from Ambassador College, went out into an area, started smoking marijuana. First thing you know, he's going to the bar with the people where he works after hours. First thing you know, he's doing that regularly. Next thing you know, he's involved with one of the young girls. Is that guy converted, on earth when did he turn around and start going the other direction?

   You know, that's what Mr. Armstrong has been harping on here lately. How many people are really converted? What time is gonna tell? I'll tell you for sure, pressures are going to bear down and we're gonna find out, God make that very plain. job was mighty righteous, but he wasn't converted. We finally got converted. He finally became converted. How can you be converted? If your righteousness comes of yourself, how can you be converted if you justify yourself instead of God?

   Conversion is God justifying you; conversion is your recognition that you need to be justified. Conversion is your recognition of how unjust you are and how greatly you need God's justification. Conversion isn't justifying yourself.

   We'll get back to Job, but let's notice an example here in the New Testament—Romans chapter 10, verse 1, Romans 10:1:

   "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God is that they might be saved." Now, in this case it was for Israel, But, you know, for anybody who's not converted, that's never been converted, that just going along with the truth, our hearts' desire and prayer God—would be that they might be saved, that they might wake up and recognize they never have been converted, so they won't have happen to them what has happened to so many people in the last few years.

   He says, why: "I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."

   Well, you can have great zeal. You can be a deacon, an elder, or you can be, give your body to be burned, you can have great zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

   Notice verse 3; "For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness, going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

   Boy oh boy! That's happened to so many people in the last 25 years! I can remember—I never could have told it ahead of time, but we've all got great hindsight—but to be able to tell somebody ahead of time is ignorant about God's righteousness, and they were always going about to establish their own righteousness. And as a consequence, they didn't submit themselves to the righteousness of God.

   Boy, that describes people I've known a great deal—and myself too, at times.

   Have you ever done that? Have you ever been ignorant of God's righteousness and thought you had zeal, and ended up going about to establish your own righteousness? Then finally, when you woke up and God showed you, you actually were not submitting yourself to God's righteousness, but were going about establishing your own righteousness?

   Do people do that when they reason around tithing? Can someone be converted, or are you converted for life? You know, could somebody reason you out of tithing? Could somebody talk you out of tithing? Could somebody sit down by any creek and get you to forsake God's law on tithing? Have you been converted on God's law of tithing forever, or just for the time being? Or just temporarily?

   I think some people that have been talked out of it they never really were converted anyway. They were just talked into it as an argument, as a belief, as a doctrine.

   You know, you don't get converted doctrine by a doctrine. Kind of like Mr. Armstrong says, it's kind of like Rover when Rover got hit by the car and was dead. You know, he was dead all over. He wasn't just dead on a leg, and dead on a foot, and dead in the tail, or dead on a ear—when Rover was dead, he was dead all over.

   Well, you don't get converted doctrine by a doctrine. You either get converted all over, or you just haven't been converted. You don't get converted to the tithing doctrine, and then get converted to the Sabbath doctrine, and then you get converted to the Holy Day doctrine, and then you get converted to the unclean foods doctrine. That's not true you know, people believe in the unclean foods that aren't any more converted than anything. People believe in the Sabbath but haven't necessarily been converted.

   Now, since you've read Romans 10 and verse 3, that's actually what was the case with Job. He didn't just establish God's righteousness or follow certain points of God's righteousness. But, he did exactly what Romans 10 there talked about.

   Maybe there's even a more clear example in Luke chapter 18. Now, this is really the key chapters on the subject that's been dwelt on a great deal here lately. You may remember Mr. Armstrong going through this in one of his Broadcasts or Telecasts.

   But notice, notice what it says here in Luke 18, and we will skip over the first part of it for the time being "He spoke this parable to those that men had always pray. And not praying. You know we all know we ought to pray, and we ought to pray every day and ideally three times a day."

   And, you know, we know this picture is about prayer. But there again, I'm more interested in your approach to prayer and why you pray than I am your prayer record because read on verse nine (Luke 18:9). And He spake this parable. I noticed this, right after he faked the parable that men ought always to pray and not to think. Look what He does. Do you think God doesn't know what we're gonna do as humans right after He tells you that man ought always to pray and not to think. He knows your nature. Mighty good. Look what you're gonna do.

   Verse nine. He spake this parable under certain, which trusted in themselves that they were righteous. How, how do you do that? When do you trust in yourselves, that you're righteous? Well, I got in my prayer today and I got in my Bible study today and boy, I got that tithe sent off and I kept that Sabbath this week and you know, I got, got to feast this year and I mean, I'm just chugging right along here. All these righteousness, boy, just one right after the other. And well, is that, is that all right? What's he, what's he say here about that? But right after he spake the parable, that man ought always to pray. Now, he goes to the other extreme and says, watch out though, here are those who trust in themselves that they were righteous.

   Now, how do you if you trust in yourself that you're righteous? Well, He gives you and indication by the next word, "despised others."

   Now, that's a bad translation, but if I were a 1611 British Protestant, that's what I'd have translated there too, because I'd have been writing about myself, you know, and I would want to put it that way instead of the other way, "despised others" well that sure doesn't mean me then. I'd say as a translator because I don't despise others. That isn't what that really means.

   There are many other examples that I can't take the time to show you back in Proverbs. It says there's a generation how lofty are their eyes. And they say, oh, don't come near me. I'm more holy than you. Nobody sees themselves that way. You know, if you ask an audience, I don't care how big, how many of them fit that description. There wouldn't be one admitted. Nobody. So how do you know when you trust in yourselves that you're right? Well, it's shown by the way you think toward others. Well, how do you feel toward others inferior to them? Less righteous. You know, what's your attitude when you go before God to pray?

   Well, it's gonna nail it down here in a minute on another scripture too. But go ahead here. This parable is for those who trusted in themselves that they were righteous. And as a result of trusting in themselves that they were righteous, they were superior, they were aloof. They were, they didn't each consider others better than themselves is the opposite. They didn't look on themselves as a worm and not a man. They, they didn't look on themselves. It's kind of striking to me. I read a magazine that one of the dropout groups has gotten started and gone bankrupt on. But anyway, they got out a magazine and, in this magazine, one of the writers talks about a church that he's acquainted with in his past that made man feel like a clod that he just had his fill of that church because it was always putting man down. It wasn't making man realize the great potential that there is inherent in all men. And that church always puts people down.

   Of course, it's obvious to me who he's talking about. It's just as obvious to me he's never been converted because he always resented that all the time he was in the church, putting you down. Does that bother you about God's church? Does it upset you for the minister to put you down to tell you how human nature really is that you're a worm and not a man and the wretched man that I am and that uh you know, we're just, we're just dirt anyway. And does that bug you? Is that rub you? Does that bother you?

   Well, if it does, you probably need to counsel with somebody. But look what it says here, because of their trust in themselves that they were righteous, they had the attitude toward others that was showing", all right, now, here we go: "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican."

   Now, you'll never find anybody that will admit they're the Pharisee that went into the temple to pray. Nobody will ever admit that. So far, that parable has struck out, it's so unbalanced, a hundred percent on one side, and never anybody ever on the other side. So, in the first place when you read it, you ought to feel that might be me. I could be that pharisee.

   Well, the Pharisees stood and prayed thus with himself. I imagine the Pharisees kind of got to him on foot washing and I imagine it would get to him a little bit when he sits in services and listens to somebody speak that he feels superior to in education or culture or whatever. But regardless the Pharisees stood and prayed thus within himself. So, you know, some of that nature, if you ever heard them pray, it might be a dead giveaway. If you, if they'd ever allow their prayers to be heard where it could be evaluated, it might be a giveaway, but this guy stands and praise thus within himself. God be merciful to me for what I am. No. Have you had the attitude since you've been converted or thanking God? You're not like other men as you go about from day to day.

   Well, God, I sure thank you. I'm not like that neighbor. Thank you God I'm not like that lady when I'm shopping here. Thank you. I'm not like that guy in that restaurant. You go through day by day. Thank you, God. You're not like everybody else around you.

   Well, that's, that's, that's bad. That's dangerous. You know. So that's what this pharisee would do. He would thank God for what he wasn't. That's not what the other man. That's not the other man's attitude. I thank you that I'm not as other men, extortioners, unjust adulterers or even as Publicans. So even thank God that he wasn't as bad as a Republican. And now notice, I fast twice in the week, no requirement to do that. That's not God's righteousness. I never read anywhere where God says thou shall fast twice in a week.

   Well because we've got to. I mean, I fast because that it becomes us to fulfill all righteous. Well, that fast doesn't amount to a hill of beans then, all the good it does you is whatever help it gives you in your health because God doesn't look on that kind of a fast. God tells you plainly in the bible, what your attitude in fasting ought to be. What, what's your reason for fastening?

   Well, this guy fasted twice in a week he gave tithes and here again, the Protestant translation covers up the meaning you ought to read this in some of the other translations. Moffett says, I pay tithe of all my increase. Boy, that's right on the nose. That's exactly what it is. But, you know, people in the past that wanted to make a point out of the fact that they give, they don't pay, that ought to be kind of a giveaway. Why should it bother you? If God gets 10% of your income, whether you say you're giving it or whether you say you're paying it, why should that bother you? God still gets the same amount, whichever way you say it. But it, you know, it's a giveaway. People want to say they're giving out of their goodness, out of their righteousness, out of their own conversion. They're gonna give God a tenth.

   Well, I don't do that. I pay God His tenth. It belongs to God. I owe it to Him. I have to. And if I'm gonna be blessed, I have to, if I want to be cursed, I just dare not do it, but out of my own righteousness, you know, these same kind of reasoners would say, well, if you're really full of God's spirit, why you'll just give more than any tithe yet none of them ever do it when the tithing law is rescinded, you know. No, I'd never do it. I'd never talked to one of those guys, you know, it's kind of fun. But talk to one of them and say, well, you know, now that you don't have to pay tithes and now that it's just this New Testament spirit of Christianity. Uh, did you give more than 10% to your church last year? Well, no, you know, that ought to be a dead giveaway. I pay tithes, I don't give tithes. You don't either. I hope. He says I pay tithes of all the increase.

   Well, here's this publican standing far off and he wouldn't lift up so much as his eyes to heaven. He smote on his breast and just said, God, be full of mercy to me, a sinner. You know, the self-righteous do that too though the people I have known in the past that were self-righteous that I felt so much inferior to that aren't even in God's church anymore. Oh, they did that. They did that greatly. You know, some of their public prayers were the most moving public prayers you ever heard. Notice what goes on? I tell you this man, this latter man, this publican went away to his house justified. Now, you see, he didn't justify himself. He depended on God to justify him. He asked God for mercy. He asked God to do the justifying.

   The pharisee justified himself by following the, the prescription fast twice in a week, give tithes, but the publican just ask for mercy and told God, he'd have to justify him. And sure enough that man went away to his house to justify, rather than the former. Because everyone that exalts himself, is gonna have to be abased. Boy, has that ever scripture happened again and again and again in the last 20 some years, you know, I can look back over years in the ministry and years in the church and I've seen all kinds of people, deacons, elders, preachers, pastors, evangelists, I've seen all kinds of men exalt themselves because they either never really have been converted. And now they have to go through being abased. But, he that humbles himself shall be exhausted.

   Now, right after the context of the parable that people aren't always praying, not saints, he comes around to that attitude which shows the opposite extreme. But now look what he goes on with. So now, right in that context, they bring to him an infant, he's gonna test whether they really got it or not, they didn't get it. Look what happened. Now, they're gonna bring babes that he would touch them. That when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. Well, Jesus called them to him and said that the little children to come to me don't forbid them all such is the kingdom of God. Verily and truly, I say to you grown men, you successful fishermen, you uh disciples. I say to you if you don't receive the kingdom of God as a little child, is that the way young people who grow up in the church and then go to Ambassador College and sit through Bible classes and get baptized and get married and go out into church areas. And did they really receive the Kingdom of God as a little child? Not when a little child, you notice, but with the attitude of a little child, you know, have people really been converted in their attitude? Have they really been converted in their very being? Have they really been conquered by God?

   That's what Mr. Armstrong has been emphasizing. And, you know, to me, one of the great lessons that illustrates this last November, the first area coordinators conference I've ever been in on and I got a call and went to Pasadena and I was just there for the last meeting because I was going to be a new area coordinator and we were waiting on Mr. Armstrong to come in and have a meeting with us on that morning. Well, he sent a message after we'd been left sitting there for a while that he'd gotten caught up in his writing the night before and he'd written until two or three in the morning. So he wouldn't be there until afternoon.

   Well, right away, I should have known by some of the guys attitudes that everything wasn't right because a few of them kind of got offended like, well, he teach us, treat us like we're kids like we're young boys like we're just young men, doesn't he know we're middle aged men now, we got families and we've got important things to do and our time is important too. And, you know, there's a little bit of a slow burn about him just sending word down there. Well, I'll see you guys this afternoon. Have a good lunch and, well, well, it's gonna get worse though, you know, because everybody came back after lunch and we got together down there and Mr. Herbert Armstrong came in and boy, oh, boy, you know, everybody thought it was going to be an open forum round table type discussion.

   Well, instead of that God inspired Mr. Herbert Armstrong to preach a vigorous sermon at us for an hour and 40 minutes, on whether you're really converted or not. Boy, you think that'd go over very well with area coordinators and these were veterans. These were guys been around in the trenches and been through the battles and boy, they were the men who'd been through it. I mean, these were the, the old time veterans. And if you have this man preached at them about whether they've ever been converted or not. Well, too bad a lot of them didn't pay better attention because they could have been, they could have asked God to help them to be converted because they weren't, well, they didn't do that. They just got upset and disappointed and hurt and thieved and...

   Well, come on back here and notice the story, you have to receive the kingdom of God like a little child. Well, how do you do that? You receive God's government, God's laws, you receive God's conversion. The Holy Spirit works with you and works on you. And do you receive it like a little child? You might notice over here in John, to me is one of the best descriptions of the process of conversion. When God's spirit really is bringing you around to the place that you're being converted. John chapter 16, beginning verse seven (John 16:7), John says, nevertheless, I tell you the truth, it's expedient for you that I go away because if I don't go away, the comforter won't come. But if I depart, I'll send it to you.

   Now, when the Holy Spirit come after Christ left, the Holy Spirit would come and they'd be converted. Well, that's obvious now that Jesus said to Peter, when you're converted, strengthen your brethren. So now Jesus is going to tell them what that spirit does to you when it comes to convert you. So when it comes, it reprove the world of sin. Well, the first part of conversion doesn't have to do with doctrines, necessarily, the first part of conversion has to do with God's spirit. And you know, in the Greek language, this word reprove is actually a progressive word and maybe your margin even shows that mine does, convince, convict and reprove. That's what God's Spirit begins to do. So if you begin to grow up in the truth and you've grown up in the Sabbath and the Holy days and no unclean foods. And you've gone to Ambassador College, and you've sat in bible classes and education is in conversion. When God's Spirit starts to work on you, it's gonna start right there convincing you about sin and convicting you about sin and reproving you about sin. And then it's going to convince you of how unrighteous you are.

   How, your righteousness is as filthy rags. How it doesn't make a bit of difference if you've grown up all your life, living God's way, how you use God's spirit is what you're rewarded for. If you don't have God's spirit, you're not a Christian no matter how long you go God's way humanly, physically. God's spirit has to convince you about righteousness. When did it convince Job about righteousness? But it wasn't his righteousness that it had better be the righteousness of God. Otherwise, he would go about establishing his own righteousness. No, God's spirit always does the same thing.

   Now, God's spirit might begin to enlighten you about different truths. You know, when you were back in the Protestant church, everybody saw a different point as the introduction to get them thinking to get them studying the Bible. But sooner or later, if God's spirit hadn't done this to you, you've never been converted. Why would you ever be baptized if you hadn't been convinced and convicted and reproved of your sin? And your lack of righteousness. Well, some are baptized to fulfill all righteousness because it's what the Bible teaches. It's required. I've heard Mr. Armstrong say a lot of times how people do. They hear the program, they get the booklets, they begin to check them up biblically and say, well, look at that. There isn't any ever burning hell. What do you know about that? And God is in the Trinity and you don't go to heaven when you die and they begin to see these doctrinal truths point by point. And then they write in and they get Water Baptism and they say, well, can you beat that? Look at that, it's immersion and you have to repent first.

   Ok, I repent and now, you know, I'm baptized, well, that isn't true. Baptism and repentance isn't the doctrine you can agree with and accept and believe, God has to work on you. It's something that has to happen to you. And the best way to know it, is to know whether someone, you know, it says God tries to reign who has the reins in your life, who, who runs your life, who is the authority and the power in your life. Is it God's word and God's church and God's proof? You know, one of the biggest dead giveaway is that somebody has never really converted is the attitude they have. You know, the minister say why that guy sure doesn't seem to have ever been converted. He just, he doesn't have a yield of attitude. He doesn't seem to be conquered by a God. That guy is independent. He self-willed, free thinking, that guy is not converted. That man's never been conquered by a God. He's never had that inferior feeling that everybody is better than he is.

   I know some men that have been in high positions in the ministry and it never was because they felt like they were so inferior and so incapable and so under everybody else, they felt like God finally recognized their abilities and they finally got where they should have been a long time ago. That's kind of ridiculous. If this doesn't happen to you in John 16, you look back and evaluate what took place before you were baptized. And if God's Spirit wasn't convincing you and convicting you and reproving you for your sin of what you are, not just what you've done.

   You know, you talk to young people who have grown up in the church. The biggest sin in their life is what they are. The biggest sin in their life is what they have not done, they should have been doing all those years, not what they have done wrong. The God spirit has to work on you to convince you and convict you and reprove you of sin and righteousness and the judgment.

   This one A.C. graduate now apparently never was even married, that frauded a girl and never was baptized, never even been converted. Finally comes to the place where he says, well, you know, after counseling with a minister, and I realize now after what I've done, gone out and smoked marijuana and gone out here and gotten running around and drinking and drinking too much and, you know, treating a wife every way a wife shouldn't be treated. He says, well, I finally realized that I'm facing the lake of fire and this is, this is it, it's either life or death should have say that one is baptized. How many people come along later on as so many have in the last few years. And they said, well, you know, the time has come, you got to make up your mind where you stand. You're supposed to do that before you get baptized. Those kinds of people obviously have never been converted.

   Let's come back to Luke 18 and notice again, that's a bad thing about the Bible being written in chapters and verses. We break it up and miss the context and the whole story the way it ought to be. Well you can fast twice in the week and not be converted. You can give ties of all you possess and not be converted. You give your body to be burned and not have charity. You can have faith to understand mysteries and not have charity.

   Notice what he says here, Now they bring the little children and said, you got to have the childlike attitude. Teachableness, respect for the teacher. What, what are, what is a beautiful, proper childlike attitude toward a parent? You know anything you tell them everything you tell them, you're like God to them. And God says you have to have that childlike attitude to show real conversion. Now notice he goes on, a certain ruler asked him saying, good master. You think people haven't come to God's church like this? Good master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? That's not what Mr. Herbert Armstrong. What happened to him? He wasn't out looking for how to inherit eternal life. He was out there looking how to make a big job and how to make a bigger career. And all of a sudden, God started getting through to him.

   Well, is this the way you came to the church? Good master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Oh Jesus said to him, what do you call Me good for? There is none good say one that's God. Now that isn't an insult or disrespectful the way it sounds. What he's really showing is the lack of comprehension on this man's part as to what he was really asking. Well, he said, you know, the commandment don't commit adultery, don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness, honor your father and your mother. And you know, he says exactly what a lot of us would have to say. All these I've kept from my youth up. Those aren't proofs of conversion growing up in God's church and having not committed adultery and having not killed and having not stolen and having not borne false witness and having honored your father and mother. That's not proof you're converted. God expected physically Israel to do that in the letter and they weren't converted. But some people come into God's truth and God's church doctrinally and they've always been willing to do what they thought was right now. That's no different now, they've never been through an experience of conversion. You get right down to brass tacks with their attitude, and they didn't conquered, yielded humble servant's attitude.

   Well notice, all these I've kept from my youth up, now when Jesus heard these things, he said to him, yet you lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor. Now, we read in first Corinthians 13. You could even do that and not have charity. But in this case, Jesus gave this as just one area this man would find out. He didn't really know what he was saying earlier. You just lack one thing, sell all that you have distribute to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. Come follow me. Well, his problem was materialism, and he heard this, he was very sorrowful because he was very rich. And when Jesus saw he was very sorrowful, he said, how hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God? It's hard, you can't be converted and have your whole desire for material things. Can you really be converted? You know, some people we thought were converted. Sooner or later, this big success came their way, money came their way. The temptation of some big job came their way. And they proved they've never been converted. They prove they never had been converted. They proved that just like Jesus was gonna test this man because they sold the truth. They started working on the Sabbath, they started dealing unchristianly. They began to not tithe; they began to violate the Holy Days.

   Well, sooner or later they prove they never been converted because this materialism cancel them out. It's like this man. It's easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Well, they were really concerned those that heard this said, well, who could be saved then? Well, Jesus said, if nobody can be saved except by God, you can't save yourself by your own righteousness. You can't save yourself by your own works or your own good.

   Now, notice the very next thing Jesus does after talking about the rich man that had kept commandments from his youth up and yet was materialistic. He didn't have a spiritual mind, when you get right down to conversion, you either are led by God's spirit and you have a spiritual mind and your priorities are on spiritual things or you just never converted because that's what conversion is beginning to have spiritual goals, beginning to put the spiritual things first, beginning to grow spiritually, beginning to see the true values. And you know, you look down on the physical like Paul said, all those things I used to count as gain, I count but dong. That's real conversion. That's real conversion. This man wasn't really converted. Yet he kept the commandments from his youth up, but he never was converted.

   And now notice what happened, Peter said, well Lord, what about us? Look what all we've left. You know what old Mr. Armstrong have to give up to keep God's truth. What have you had to give up to keep God's truth? You know, so many people just come into the truth and they've never had to give up anything. It hasn't cost them anything really at all because they never did have a Sabbath problem. They never did have a test on faith of health or they never did have a test on tithing or you know what if you left and followed Christ? What, what, where are you bringing forth proving repentance? What can you say? Well, look, I lost this job because of the Sabbath and I had to go hungry for a while because I paid that tithe. You know God hasn't always promised He'll bless you immediately.

   So, Peter said, Lord, we have left all. Jesus said, do you think Jesus knew what he meant? What do you mean? Left all. There's no man that has left house, our parents, our brethren or wife or children. Now, one of the oldest deacons in the church nether proved he was converted because he couldn't leave children. I've known the people that grew up in the church later on when they come to the time in life when they have to choose for themselves, which way they're gonna go, their parents can't take it. They'd rather have their children respect and fellowship and other things rather than the truth of God and thereby some people leave the church because their kids get old enough to live their own life and they don't interested in the church. And so then the parents quit too.

   Well, they just prove, what do they prove? They never been converted. Maybe Jesus said right here. One of the things that some would have to leave to prove their fruit of repentance, house, parents, brethren, wife, children. I know looking back when God first opened the truth to me, I wanted the Sabbath to be Sunday. I did not want the Sabbath to be Saturday. I went to all the preachers. I could get rid of that crazy thing in my head that had been put there about the seventh day Sabbath and it being of God and I wanted the Sabbath to be Sunday. But unless it could be proven that it was then that was too bad.

   Well, you know, my dad thought I was crazy. He said, that's, that's dumb. He said, you know, here, here we live right here, Nazarene Church there, Assembly of God Church there, Baptist Church on this corner, uh you know Presbyterian church on this corner Methodist Church. Your right smack in the middle of all the churches in Kilgore. And you got to go to California Church, all the dumb things and a radical deal about the Sabbath. You know, what difference does it make which day it is? Just rest one day in seven. Well, I didn't want to go to California, to church, my girlfriend I was in love with in East Texas and I didn't want Sabbath to be Saturday. Has that ever happened to you though? You know, have, have you left house, parents, brethren, wife, children for the Kingdom of God's sake. And if you have you receive many fold more in this present time and in the world to come life everlasting.

   Another scripture back in Matthew chapter three, Matthew chapter three, verse 13 (Matthew 3:13). The story starts, Then Jesus comes from Galilee to Jordan to John to be baptized, baptized of him. John forbade him saying I have need to be baptized of you and you come to me and Jesus answering said to him, suffer me so now for thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness. Now that is only true of Jesus, nobody else can ever do anything of righteousness for that reason. And yet some people's attitudes about prayer about Bible study about fasting some people's attitudes about tithing the Sabbath, the Holy Days. It is just right there. Well, you know, I've got to do this because it becomes us to fulfill. You know, if we're gonna always fully fill all that we've been shown and know is righteousness, then we've always got to do everything we see that, that way we'll fulfill all righteousness. That's not why we pray just to fulfill all righteousness. That's not why you fast. That's not why you study. That's not why you're baptized, either.

   Jesus had no sin to bury. You know, Jesus had no guilt. He had no condemnation. He didn't need to be justified, but he did have to be baptized by example, as a example of fulfilling all righteous. But that's not true about any other human, except any other being but Jesus.

   Now, why do you study? Because that spiritual food? And if you don't feed on this spiritual food, you just don't grow spiritually. You just are weak, you flounder around and you, you know, you're lukewarm and you're slack and lazy as a thriving spirit. Begettal inside of you, you study because you know, you hunger and thirst after righteousness. You know, this is the living water. This is the bread of life. Jesus said, except you eat his flesh. You have no life in you. So you know how much you need to study, but you don't just study to fulfill all righteousness unless you're Job, unless you're somebody that's self-righteous.

   Why do you pray? I can show you examples of why David prayed. Notice back in Psalm 109. That's why one thing I've mentioned in the past to you here is that when you get in tough times and pressure is really on you. The best thing to do is read Bible prayers out loud on your knees, get out notebook paper and copy it down scriptures, write out scriptures. That's what you need to do. You don't worry on your knees then, and you don't give up human carnal prayers. You pray spiritually praying in the spirit mentioned many times in the Bible.

   But notice here in Psalm 109, verse 24 (Psalm 109:24), My knees are weak through fasting and my flesh fails of fatness. Now, you know, compare that to the guy that says I fast twice in the week. And I give tithes of all that I have all that I possess. That's not David's attitude. David realized how much he needed God. He realized how much it is to change from a human into the family of God. David knew he was a worm and not a man. David knew how the flesh profits nothing and how weak you are humanly. David said my flesh fails, my knees are weak and, you know, you read some of the prayers of David and see how he prayed. He didn't just get in his prayer. He didn't just say, well, I got in my 30 minutes today or, you know, I got in my 30 minutes of Bible study today, and there are people that are gonna always be around you and they're gonna kind of be a talk to you that they're doing their righteousness, but that's not what God is talking about. It's not our righteousness that's going to make it.

   The latest Telecast that I saw in Pasadena. I guess it was last Sunday. Mr. Armstrong was talking about people that believe in God and they believe there is a God, and they believe this Bible is the word of God. But if he said, do they believe God when you read God's word, is it God's word? If someone could open the Bible and say, let me show you what the Bible says about birthdays? Well, yeah, I know. But that's not, that's not a person that's spiritual, the person, that's spiritual, you know what the Bible says? They tremble in fear at the word of God. You remember back in Ezrael, Nehemiah's day when they lost that attitude toward God, and they had to be in a captivity. And when they came back, if you just opened the word of God, everybody stood up, everybody got dead quiet and stood on their feet and they apparently stood there for hours standing up just because someone had that book open.

   Well, now, you know, that's somebody that's really converted when you get people that argue about God's word, reason around God's word, that's not conversion. So, I hope all of the young people here. Will recognize that according to what Mr. Armstrong has been bringing out and highlighting here lately in I Corinthians seven, children who have either parent in the church. God says you're not unclean, you're holy. I mean, that's what the Bible says. And if Mr. Armstrong is brought out, that means you can understand God's way if you want to. That means you can become converted. If God knows, it'll really be best for you in this day because of your attitude. But I really hope our young people will come to the place that they recognize. You don't grow up converted in all the knowledge of the truth isn't conversion. Unless you go through an experience of being conquered by God, you've never been converted.

   And that's true of adults too. And I hope all of us will look back and review how we came into the church so we can become converted if we've never been converted. You know, I, I worry about some of some obvious whether you've ever been converted or not. And if you never have been, then you won't be here after a few more years as trials begin to get worse and troubles begin to hit a lot harder. Have you ever really been converted? How do you really know? You really know and know that, you know, you've really been converted. How do you know, have you really gone back over and parallel it with the Bible examples of conversion? And you really know that you're conquered of God, that you're really yielded and submitted that you live by every word of God. Is that your attitude like a babe towards things told it?

   We've had a lot of people who haven't had that attitude. You know, we've read a lot of warnings here about people that weren't converted. You ever think about the Bible being examples of false conversions. There are a lot of examples in the Bible of false conversion. You know, you think about Solomon. Solomon grew up knowing the truth. Solomon had a dad who's going to be king over all of Israel forever and yet he hopefully never was converted. And of course, if he were it's even worse, but I hope if I were a young person and I grew up in the church, I wouldn't do what most people do, take things for granted. You know, if I were a young person, I'd get that old Correspondence Course out and I'd check it up in the Bible. I take the booklets, and I check them up in the Bible and I'd want to be going this way because I know and I know that I know it's out of God's word. It's not my dad's religion. It's not my mom's religion, not Armstrong's religion. It's not a church. It's the truth of God. It's the word of God. You're gonna live by every word of God.

   Was that the attitude you had when you were baptized? You know, Mr. Armstrong used to say that he baptized a few people when they didn't even know about clean and unclean meats. He baptized a few people when they still smoked and he said, well, they haven't had the opportunity to have those things shown to them. But I knew by their attitude towards God's word that when I had the time to show them, they'd change and sure enough, they always did.

   You know, I know when I was baptized, I had never heard A from Z about feast tithe, about a third year. I never heard those things. You know, when I was baptized, I didn't even know about the Feast of Tabernacle. And yet I was at the place, if Mr. Armstrong could have shown me in the Bible, we ought to all shave our heads and be bald. I'd have done it. I mean, if it's in the box. Now, that would be mighty embarrassing. Boy, you really get it. You really get a lot of ribbing and kidding. And, but are you surrendered live by every word of God?

   You know another dead giveaway about somebody that's not converted is what their attitude towards the church. You remember back here in Matthew 18, what Jesus said about someone that won't hear the church. That's a good, good proof. Somebody's never converted. The church is the mother of all of us. No baby has ever been born without a mother. And if the church is your mother, then you're gonna have to have that attitude towards the mother.

   Notice verse 18, verse 17, is this zeroing right in on this particular point, dealing with one brother to another brother. And then the brother's attitude begins to show that he's, he's not willing to let a brother show him any fault. He's not subject to a brother who may and Christian spirit of love, go to a brother. He will not listen. Verse 15, if your brother shall trespass against you, go and tell him his fall between you and him alone. Now somebody that's converted, no correction for the present seems joyous. Nobody likes to be corrected. But if a brother goes to another brother in the spirit of meekness in privacy and heart felty, lets him know about a trespass, a converted person. He didn't, he didn't gonna like it on the, at the time, but he's gonna respect it and appreciate it.

   Now, if the guy isn't converted, he's not gonna hear you. But if he is converted, he'll listen. All right. Now, what if the guy isn't converted? Or what if he won't listen to one brother? Well, maybe he's just more carnal and they ought to be. So you take another brother and maybe he'll listen to two brothers. Maybe he may listen to the three brothers say, well, well, I didn't know I come across that way. But if all three of you guys, if it's offended you or hurt you, then it must be so. So, if the person is converted, he'll listen to two or three brothers. But what if he don't, doesn't even listen to two or three brothers, then notice what it says?

   Verse 17. If he neglect to hear them, tell it to the church, then bring the ministry in on it. Have a meeting, sit down, have the minister face the brothers with this trespass against the other brothers. What if a man just bullheadedly isn't even going to listen to some scriptures. And I can read to you from this one report where this minister mentions that he sat down with some people just like this says and faced them with some scriptures and they just deliberately even knowing what it said in the sense that they were gonna go ahead and do it anyway. So he had to put them out of the church, if they ever really was in the church. But notice what God says, anyone that isn't spiritual enough to realize for his own growth's sake, he should listen to two or three brothers and he neglects to hear them and then it's taken to the church.

   And what if someone, just still is so self-willed, so independent and free thinking and hardheaded that he's not even going to listen to the minister. He said, well, that minister is out to get me. He just doesn't like me. We got a personality conflict. And uh well, you know, does that guy converted? And what if someone, just still is so self-willed, so independent and free thinking and hardheaded that he's not even going to listen to the minister. He said, well, that minister is out to get me. He just doesn't like me. And we got a personality conflict. And uh well, you know, is that guy converted, if they neglect to hear the church, let him be to you as a heathen man and a Publican.

   If Jesus saying by that, why the guy is probably not even converted then, treat him just like anybody else is not converted heathen or publican. So you can tell a person's conversion by whether they listen to the church by whether they will obey every word of God by whether they have an attitude of being humble and meek and conquered and yielded and submissive, especially with young people. We have to be sure we don't just grow up practicing the truth as you read here in Luke 18.

   Well, I hope all of us, especially here we come up on another Holy Day, the day of Pentecost, the birth of the church. We've just finished the Passover and putting sin out of our life on Unleavened Bread. But you know, that's a good time for all of us to really look back over our experience since we've been in the knowledge of God's truth and find out whether we've just gone along with doctrine, whether we just never really faced this personal experience of being conquered by God, whether we just kind of and accepted a way of life without really bearing the old man. Because surely those are the things that have happened with people in the past that aren't in the church today. And if we sit here today in that condition, then we need to find out, we need to find out. I really hope that if the minister had to come to you and say, look, I don't mean to offend you and I don't mean to hurt your feelings. I just really am doing it, hoping maybe you will wake up and become converted, but you just never have been converted. You don't have a converted attitude. I don't see the fruit in the fruit of God's spirit having grown in your life since you were dunked. You know, I just in all sincerity, I hope you will look back and check up on whether you've ever really been converted.

   And I think the best way for all of us as far as any, Job righteousness, is just pray and ask God every day to show us if we're self-righteous to show us if we're obstinate and independent, if we set up our own righteousness like Job, to see if we are establishing our own justification instead of depending on God to justify us. Because we don't want to be losing a lot more of us out of God's church. And of course, Mr. Armstrong, the last time I was over there, he said now, the thing we're, that's important to us is quality. He said, I'd rather have a church that's got 50,000 converted people in it, that a church has got 70,000 and 20,000 of them aren't even convered. He said, I want all of us to reevaluate our counseling about baptism. Let's quit dunking people. That's, what does that do to their chance later on? You know, and he's wanting us? Well, I wouldn't be a bit surprised. He starts writing some articles about real conversion and what is real repentance. And, you know, when you're really conquered as God, because it's been a crusher to him to have people who have gotten real close to him. People, he had a lot of confidence in, people he was very, you know, brotherly towards. And then all of a sudden they go kicking off places and go out and start another church. You know, if we're not converted, we certainly ought to want to be. And if we haven't been, we better hurry up and get converted because we don't have too much time left. So I hope all of us will really zero in on that and not just not have any more things like that going on.